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Dec. 25, 2022

Warren Fahy and James Valliant on Creating Christ

Warren Fahy and James Valliant on Creating Christ
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Today we video chat with returning guests, James Valliant and Warren Fahy as they discuss the documentary made from their great book, Creating Christ: How the Romans Invented Christianity.

(Due to an "act of God," I have published the web recording without doing any editing. ;) )

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Show notes with links to articles, blog posts, products and services:


Episode 63 (48 minutes) was recorded at 2000 Central European Time, on December 17, 2022, with Boomcaster. Martin did the post-production with the podcast maker, Alitu. The transcript is generated by Alitu.

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Transcript
Martin:

Go.

Blair:

Alright.

Blair:

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Blair:

Welcome to the secular Boom cast today.

Blair:

Martin and I have two great guests.

Blair:

James Valiant and Warren Faye are here to discuss their documentary and their book

Blair:

Creating Christ how the Romans Invented Christianity.

Blair:

Good afternoon, gentlemen.

Blair:

How are you?

Warren:

Good, thanks.

James:

How are you, sir?

Blair:

It's great to have you, believe me.

Blair:

I love how you open your documentary or the

Blair:

documentary by having the viewer think you're talking about present day events in the Middle

Blair:

East.

Blair:

Yet it isn't, is it?

James:

Well, there we can take some spread.

James:

I guess the documentary was first thing I want

James:

to say is that the documentary was created and produced by not Mr. Fey and myself.

James:

Although inspired by our book, we're looking at Emmy award nominated documentarians who've

James:

done previous documentaries.

James:

They had the creative control, they made all

James:

the visual and musical decisions.

James:

They edited it.

James:

I wish that I could take any credit in such a magnificent documentary.

James:

I'm very pleased with it.

James:

But the creative decision of theirs and out of

James:

our control, we signed the rights over to them.

James:

But you happen to choose one issue where there's overlap between the book and the

James:

documentary.

James:

We assume that they use books start.

Martin:

That way to inspire the year 66 2022.

James:

Right.

James:

And if you think about it, that ancient war

James:

from 2000 years ago in one sense hasn't stopped.

James:

And we meant to give people a vivid connection between religion and politics in our own time

James:

and how it leads to violence and terrorism and how primordial religious ideas are still at

James:

war with more advanced Western ideas.

James:

The basic conflict hasn't changed.

Martin:

Games. Warren and Micah blair.

Martin:

And please take care here with your voice.

Martin:

Also, we recommend stopping your recording before hanging up.

Martin:

Okay? So that's also information for the call.

Martin:

So we are doing this live, but I want to do a shout out and thank you note to Fritz Heed.

Martin:

Is that correct? Nonsense.

Warren:

Yes.

Martin:

Could you tell? Because I got access, because this is the

Martin:

license and so on, mainly in North America, but I got access to that so I could watch it

Martin:

and I'm blown away.

Martin:

And it's a great documentary.

Martin:

So could you please tell a little bit more about them, fritz he and his operation, his

Martin:

companion and their work.

Martin:

And then Blair, you continue with your

Martin:

questions.

Blair:

Sure. Go ahead, James.

Warren:

Yeah, well, they're documentarians who also did a documentary on Joseph Atwell's book

Warren:

Caesars Messiah.

Warren:

And so they contacted us after the book came

Warren:

out and they were interested in doing a documentary based on our book as well.

Warren:

So that we spent a few days with them doing interviews and we visited a Catholic church

Warren:

and looked at all of the symbolism that was in the architecture of the church and it was

Warren:

rather vivid.

Warren:

Anchors and dolphins everywhere.

Warren:

They took all of that material and over the last two years they put together this

Warren:

documentary.

James:

They came to where Mr. Faye was living at the time, where I lived still.

James:

And we went to the main Catholic church, one of the oldest here and biggest here in San

James:

Diego, which is located at the university where I went to law school.

James:

But, of course, that never stepped through the Cathedral Park, what they call the immaculata

James:

at all.

James:

That was my very first visit to that

James:

structure, that church.

James:

And both Mr. Fay and I were simply blown away

James:

as we walk in for the very first time.

James:

There's an interesting symbol over here.

James:

You got your anchor.

James:

Well, over here, we were just constantly

James:

pointing out all the various things and all the various niches in the church.

Warren:

Once you have that symbolic key, then you look around, you see it everywhere.

Warren:

It's amazing.

Warren:

The whole church was practically made out of

Warren:

anchors, pourishes, of dolphins everywhere.

Warren:

It's just amazing.

Warren:

People never put that together, which is.

Blair:

I can hear everyone.

Warren:

It's a miracle.

Warren:

Yeah. It's miraculous that nobody ever put

Warren:

those symbols together before.

Warren:

I think that there was a little zigzag in the

Warren:

way that those symbols were interpreted in the modern day, because it was erroneously

Warren:

associated with Augustus saying festina lente, which means make haste slowly, which was

Warren:

Augustus's favorite saying.

Warren:

And so it was assumed that he had issued a

Warren:

coin with a dolphin and anchor on it, which never happened.

Warren:

Augustus never did issue that coin.

Warren:

He had a symbol of a trident and a dolphin

Warren:

wrapped around it, but never of an anchor with a dolphin wrapped around it.

Warren:

And so because of that, was transposed to think that it was a symbol of festina lente,

Warren:

of Augustus saying it got completely overlooked as a symbol that was used by both

Warren:

Christians and the Flavians.

Warren:

So that disguised what was going on for a long

Warren:

time.

Warren:

And in fact, we do know that Augustus had a

Warren:

symbol that he created to express the idea of maze slowly, or festival, which was a snail

Warren:

shell and a rabbit's front moving along fast, but a snail behind.

Warren:

And so that's how he actually illustrated that faith, and it never had anything to do with

Warren:

the dolphin or an anger.

Warren:

So that was a confusing thing that probably

Warren:

let people forget, not catch what was going on between the Christians and the slavians until

Warren:

we had to unravel that as well.

James:

So, in fact, the first association of anchor and dolphin with 15 lente cannot be

James:

attested until the ground.

Warren:

Right, right.

Warren:

It was the famous printer used it as his logo

Warren:

of his publishing company, and he probably is the one who misuscribed it to Augustus coin.

Warren:

But it is known that the Flavian emperors were the first to use the.

James:

Symbol for use to use the at all.

Blair:

Go ahead.

James:

First and second Jewish revolts was just interesting.

Blair:

So what ignited your quest to discover Christianity's origins?

Blair:

Was there something you both discovered or both?

Blair:

One said to the other, hey, look at this.

Blair:

Or what began the quest.

James:

Interesting, we both came from Christian families, and we both had a

James:

Christian background, in effect, as a child.

James:

I think I took it more seriously longer than

James:

Mr. Faye did.

James:

I think he was wiser in dumping the whole

James:

thing earlier on, and he fortunately had a father who told the Bible was a closed mind,

James:

and so he had some good, good people telling him, helping him get out of that his own way

James:

when he was a child.

James:

But even after we both became atheists, he is

James:

by nature a researcher.

James:

He is, I guess, what we would call a wonk.

James:

He will become an expert on the detailed science of whatever that he is studying.

James:

And so over the years we've known each other since childhood.

James:

We've had all kinds of fascinating discussions.

James:

We really his teens discovered Iron Rand together, for example, and much of philosophy

James:

together.

James:

He always wanted to be a novelist, even before

James:

he'd read any novels by Iron Rand.

James:

And he was a brilliant writer, even teen, and

James:

he's gotten only more masterful sense in my book.

James:

I recommend every novel that Warren Fay has ever published.

James:

They are some of the finest.

James:

He's the finest living novelist of our time.

James:

I will be that blunt about it, and I do know I'm biased.

James:

He's a childhood friend of mine, but I read a lot of novels.

James:

He's just a stupendous writer.

James:

I myself wanted to use the knowledge I got

James:

from being a Christian woman, and so I continued my studies after I discovered

James:

philosophers like random Nietzsche.

James:

I had an inspiration one day at a library

James:

reading Josephus, and I was so inspired by it that I cut a beeline when the traffic calmed

James:

down to Mr. Fay's home and I started out his poor little apartment.

James:

Well, you got to wake up.

James:

You got to wake up, dude, you got to wake up.

James:

I'm so excited about something.

James:

One of the many connections that we talk about

James:

in the book was just one, but it led to a whole series of chain reaction of other

James:

implications and hypotheses.

James:

He finally comes out his boxers needs a shame.

James:

Okay, Jimmy, this better be damn.

James:

I said no, really?

Warren:

But that's the kind of relationship yeah.

Warren:

And that was 35 years ago, and it took over 30 years to finally put it all together into the

Warren:

book.

Warren:

But yes, he chewed my ear off for hours that

Warren:

first night, and really, we kind of came to the conclusion that was pretty close to what

Warren:

the Antithesis was, which was that Christianity began as a sort of proto imperial

Warren:

cult of the Flavians, or at least an aspect of their imperial cult.

Warren:

And of course, it got modified, and we focused in more tightly over the years.

Warren:

But that was the takeaway even from the very beginning.

Blair:

I see a lot at that point in time.

James:

Go ahead.

James:

We each found important evidence along the way

James:

that we just grew more and more certain that we would have to present this back to the

James:

image issue that he brought up about Festina Lente.

James:

Since the publication of Creating Christ, we've gotten some remarkable praise and

James:

endorsements from various people.

James:

One of the most remarkable is Professor Mark

James:

dispensent.

James:

He has just retired from King's College

James:

London, where he taught this, his area edition in ancient history.

James:

In this particular matter, early Christianity is astonishing.

James:

He knows numerous ancient languages.

James:

He is in particular and has been over the

James:

years, an expert in ancient Roman iconography, particularly as it relates to the Christians,

James:

and recently been converted to Roman providence thanks to our book.

James:

And he is now currently working on a new book with various authors who advocate Roman

James:

providence.

James:

So it really has been an exciting,

James:

overwhelming time.

James:

I did not think that the book would have that

James:

kind of impact, but so shortly for people like Dr. Price to say such nice things, professor

James:

Eisenman, Professor Marcus Vincent to say such nice things.

James:

It's been a really remarkable to have a documentary made on your book within five or

James:

six years of it coming up.

James:

I really am blown away by the reaction.

James:

I thought, you don't want 100 years.

James:

They might dust it off and say, you know,

James:

these guys may have had a point or something, but to have this kind of reaction has really

James:

blown me.

Blair:

Well, that's great.

Blair:

I know that Dr. Price and Dr. Eisenman are

Blair:

well renowned scholars in their fields.

James:

But they have an international reputation while those professor Vincent but I

James:

think you have to be an open minded, creative mind to be at the cutting edge with us on

James:

this.

James:

I think we should expect a pushback both from

James:

standard academia establishment types as well as Christian, obviously from your sincere

James:

Christian apologist types.

Blair:

Yeah. Speaking for myself, I rejected religion when I was seven, but unfortunately I

Blair:

had to go to church till I was 18.

Blair:

A lot of damage was done, so to speak, but I

Blair:

could just remember, like, what is this garbage is so boring.

Blair:

But that aside for me, Christianity, I said in my question, I said, It's a hoax.

Blair:

But is it a conglomeration that they, like, take over pagan rituals and other myths and

Blair:

then into that faith, or am I even close?

Warren:

I think that religion and statecraft were one and the same in the ancient world,

Warren:

and that's just how they did politics.

Warren:

So we separated today and one's on one side

Warren:

the other, but there wasn't any separation back then.

Blair:

That makes a great deal of sense.

Blair:

Yeah.

James:

Think of what the American Revolution did by creating a secular government.

James:

No established religion, freedom of exercise.

James:

You think even of what Napoleon did in

James:

attempting to secularize the governments of continental Europe.

James:

We today, 200 years on from those developments.

James:

We think of law as secular thing, and we think of religion as a separate thing, so that when

James:

say, jihadists come out and say we want enforce Sharia law, what do you mean you want

James:

religious law? Not in the west, thank you very much.

James:

We've gotten over that, you see, in the west, in the Islamic world.

James:

I certainly have not.

James:

But you go back more than 300 years, there's

James:

no separation between church and state.

James:

The kingdoms of Europe that still have kings

James:

and queens have established state churches unto this day, which is really astonishing if

James:

you think about it.

James:

Now, everything in the ancient world that was

James:

political had a religious interpretation.

James:

And every religious idea is obviously being

James:

manifest in the event, the historical events, their moment, they saw them all in those

James:

terms.

James:

Roman Republic was a sacred institution

James:

blessed by the gods.

James:

They had an official, official state religion.

James:

They all did.

James:

The Jewish revolt itself had religious causes.

James:

They wanted to enforce the Mosaic Law within their own territory, much the same as

James:

consistent Muslims today want to enforce Sharia law in their countries.

James:

And so it was a question of Roman governance and law and religious perspectives along with

James:

the Jewish governance and law along with the religious perspectives that informed them.

James:

But an event like the Jewish first century or the next great Jewish revolt of the second

James:

century under Barcopa were explicitly religious in nature.

James:

Ancient commentators said they were religious in cause.

James:

It was the messianic prophecies of the Jews that caused this, what we would call today,

James:

say, terrorism and religious jihad warfare 2000 years ago.

James:

And it was a catastrophic war.

James:

And we just simply could not believe that that

James:

messianic inspired religious war of the first and second centuries was disconnected.

James:

The emergence of Christianity at that very moment in history.

Blair:

I see this was pointed out in your book and in the documentary.

Blair:

What's the significance of Joseph's histories and the Gospels were being written at the same

Blair:

time?

Warren:

Well, that was actually one of the things that sparked the whole investigation

Warren:

that led to the book.

Warren:

James came over to my apartment in the middle

Warren:

of the night and told me that he's been reading, comparing Josephus to the New

Warren:

Testament Gospels and to the prophecies of Jesus coming back when the temple was

Warren:

destroyed.

Warren:

And he describes certain aspects of what that

Warren:

scene will look like that mirrored Josephus's description of the actual sacking of the

Warren:

temple 40 years later.

Warren:

So of course they were written at the same

Warren:

time.

Warren:

Both these things were written after the fact,

Warren:

the Gospels and Josephus side by side.

Warren:

So the fact that those things were perfect

Warren:

mirror images of each other obviously suggested there was some kind of coordination.

James:

The numerous parallels between the Plevian emperors and the descriptions of

James:

Christ had already been discussed by a scholar named Joseph Atwell.

James:

For example, we had noted those long before Joseph Atwell's book was even published, many

James:

of them at least.

James:

And furthermore, the way Josephus describes

James:

the siege of Jerusalem is precisely what Jesus describes in the first three canonical

James:

Gospels.

James:

And so much so that what Jesus said could only

James:

imply that he was expecting the glorious coming of the Son of man to happen when the

James:

temple was destroyed in 70 Ad and Jerusalem raised to the ground.

James:

Well, the prophecy was obviously a post event prophecy.

James:

So where is this glorious coming of the Son of man?

James:

We have the temple destroyed, Jerusalem destroyed, cataclysmic events.

James:

But there were Messiahs who claimed to be Jewish Messiahs at the time, glorious comings

James:

of the Son of man and these were the Flavian emperors who had destroyed Jerusalem.

James:

And I was reading in Joseph's vestasian is the Jewish messiah.

James:

Wait, what a minute, wait a minute.

James:

He describes the siege of Jerusalem just as

James:

Mark 13 does, with armies fighting in the clouds invoking earlier Jewish prophecies.

James:

So both Josephus and the Gospels use the same prophetic imagery to describe the glorious

James:

coming of a Messiah at this time.

James:

Jesus makes it very plain it will happen

James:

within the lifetime of people hearing him.

James:

And the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple

James:

did happen at that time.

James:

But where's this glorious coming of the Son of

James:

Messiah? It could only be really a proof text of the

James:

Flavian claims.

James:

What you find in the Gospels and based on the

James:

description or events that Josephus himself is describing, probably the very description,

James:

since I don't think there was probably an army by the clouds over Jerusalem, they share a

James:

common source, in other words, Josephus and the Gospels.

James:

And Josephus is a Roman propagandist.

James:

So you see the connections between the Roman

James:

reaction to the Jewish war and early Christianity became more and more unstacable.

James:

And when you look at the doctrines of the Jewish rebels versus New Testament Christians,

James:

it becomes clear that the New Testament is a critical reaction to the militant nationalist

James:

Torah orthodox messianic Jewish rebels of the first two centuries.

James:

It seems that Christianity is a perfect critique of each of the elements that seem to

James:

have alienated the Jews from Roman culture or have inspired directly to war.

James:

Messiah, Torah, Orthodoxy, nationalism, militancy, not peace on earth and everyone can

James:

get along.

James:

It doesn't matter whether you're a Jew or

James:

Greek.

James:

All that stuff we read in the New Testament is

James:

obviously Roman propaganda.

James:

And a recent scholar, Professor Robin Faith

James:

Walsh, a recent book from Cambridge University Press, which I highly recommend, basically

James:

demonstrates that the New Testament could only have been written by Greco Roman elites of

James:

period.

Blair:

Wow.

Martin:

You mentioned something about the so called the agent Paul and how maybe that was a

Martin:

scheme in the long run.

Warren:

Well, there is speculation that Paul himself was a Roman agent who was sent among

Warren:

the Jewish rebels to sort of sow division or to mallify some of their more belligerent

Warren:

tendencies.

Warren:

But there's a lot of mystery there.

Warren:

What exactly Paul was even the dating of Paul is still up in the air.

James:

In the book, we take a very standard consensus scholar to view on the dating of

James:

Paul, his letters written in the middle of the first century, basically, which is where most

James:

scholars are.

James:

But that's really just been a carryover

James:

there's not a lot of good reason for specifically, there is no attestation for any

James:

of the contents of the New Testament until the second half of the second century Ad.

James:

That is to say, not even Christian scholars will quote earlier Christian material found in

James:

the Judgement.

James:

We don't even have descriptions of this

James:

material apart from the most vague descriptions until the second half of the

James:

second century.

James:

A friend of mine, Jack Full of PhD candidate

James:

at King's College London, has pointed this out and he said, in any other really good point in

James:

any other field of ancient history, you'd be laughed off the stage if you said, this must

James:

be first century.

James:

There's really no attestation.

James:

But we take a very conservative date in the book.

James:

And since writing the book, I have become more and more convinced of a later and later dating

James:

to both Paul's letters and the Gospels.

James:

But to be safe, anytime between, say, 50 and

James:

the 150 Ad are any of the potential times, because we don't have any physical manuscript

James:

scraps of the New Testament, we have no attestation from other authors, even Christian

James:

authors, until the second half of the second century.

James:

So in terms of quotes and a clear naming of what we're reading.

James:

So while we take that view, anytime between, say, the years before the first revolt and the

James:

years following the second revolt are actually, from a strictly speaking, scientific

James:

perspective, at plausible dates for the New Testament.

James:

It's funny, though, that the Flavian era, the two Jewish wars, are going on right at this

James:

moment.

James:

There was a question earlier I'm sorry, I kind

James:

of lost sight of your.

Blair:

I was going to ask we know that Rome was open to accepting the religious

Blair:

affiliations of the people they conquered, but I'm assuming that the Jewish revolted because

Blair:

they didn't want to separate the state and their faith.

James:

The Romans were very accommodating foreign religions.

James:

They just absorbed foreign religions from the east to the Greek religion.

James:

They just one for one, identified the pantheon early on.

James:

But you could worship Egyptian gods like ISIS and therapists in Rome.

James:

You could worship the Phrygian great mother.

James:

You could, in time, worship their enemies god

James:

Mithra from Persia.

James:

So they were just absorbing and developing a

James:

Roman version of all of these different Eastern religions.

James:

If there wasn't a Roman version of Judaism, it would really be a big lacuna in the area.

James:

Where is the Roman version of Judaism now? At first, the Romans gave exemptions to the

James:

Jews because they couldn't even say a prayer in the presence of an idol or graven image,

James:

you see, which is very much against Mosaic law.

James:

So Jews were exempted from that and allowed to enforce the mosaic law in their own

James:

territories.

James:

See how sensitive the Romans were to all this?

James:

It was only the Jewish war itself that brought that to an end.

Warren:

Okay, yeah.

Warren:

The Jews were monotheists in a world dominated

Warren:

by polytheists, and there was a.

James:

Natural conflict and their religious practice to make them separatists.

James:

Romans said there were haters of all mankind in their antisemitic rants, but you'll notice

James:

they can't eat with foreigners because they have kosher diet.

James:

Foreigners for some Jews, were just impure.

James:

They have strict sabbath observance.

James:

They have circumcision, which made it embarrassing and difficult for them to

James:

participate in Greek athletic activities, for example, from way back.

James:

So they had odd beliefs that made it difficult for them to assimilate or for woman's who were

James:

interested in being Jewish to become Jewish.

James:

What adult man would go through circumcision,

James:

for example? It was a hard sell feature.

James:

So what Christianity seems to do is get rid of all of the while most distinctive elements of

James:

Judaism are being knocked out of court.

James:

It seems to be making a kind of messianic

James:

Judaism, which makes it easy for Jews to assimilate into the Roman world and for Romans

James:

who are interested in Jewish monotheism to dabble with it or go even further and absorb

James:

it.

James:

Philosophical monotheism was on the rise since

James:

Plato and neoplatonism synchronism of various religions was well underway at this time.

James:

And so there were many Romans interested in monotheism, but they didn't want to go all

James:

that far.

James:

So between the Gentiles who were interested in

James:

Judaism and the Jews who were wanting to work with the Romans and assimilate into the Roman

James:

world, christianity provided the perfect.

Blair:

Okay, now let's go back a bit.

Blair:

We mentioned the symbols, and I think we

Blair:

talked briefly about the coinage.

Blair:

Were there similarities between the Roman

Blair:

coinage and religious symbols, as you say, the dolphin and the anchor?

James:

Mr. Bago he was the guy.

James:

I was skeptical we'd even find such an image,

James:

but he found this image, and when I finally was able to pick my jaw up from the floor, he

James:

showed me this image was astonishing.

James:

He did an inventory of ancient Roman pointage,

James:

convinced that we would somewhere find physical evidence of our thesis.

James:

Go.

James:

Mr. Fay.

James:

You're working, I believe.

Warren:

Well, from the very beginning, actually, from that very first night, I was

Warren:

determined to investigate Roman coinage because I thought that would be the most

Warren:

unique type of evidence.

Warren:

Temple temples can be demolished, of course.

Warren:

Manuscripts can be lost, but coins are minted in the millions.

Warren:

Every single time.

Warren:

They would put out, say, 6 million silver

Warren:

coins in various different mints around the entire empire.

Warren:

So I knew there was no way you could get rid of all those.

Warren:

And it did take over 30 years.

Warren:

It was the sort of like the final thing.

Warren:

My mother had gone to Rome, and she had brought back a souvenir from the catacombs of

Warren:

St. Domatilla, and it was a picture of the anchors flanked by two fish.

Warren:

And it was the famous Christian symbol from the earliest Christian catacombs in Rome.

Warren:

So I was looking at this, and then meanwhile, I'm looking through Roman coins, roman coins,

Warren:

palavian coins.

Warren:

And I keep seeing the dolphin wrapped around

Warren:

the anchor, and I'm just not making a connection.

Warren:

And here's this plaque that my mother had given me.

Warren:

I've got it hanging on my wall.

Warren:

I finally just wait a minute.

Warren:

That's it.

Warren:

That's it right there.

Warren:

And so once we started looking into it, it was like an Easter egg hunt.

Warren:

Both of us went off in different directions and kept finding dolphins and anchors and

Warren:

dolphins and anchors throughout Christianity and throughout Flavian era.

Warren:

And also another overlap.

Warren:

Dolphins and tridents were used by both the

Warren:

Christians and the slavians.

James:

In the first two or 300 years of Christian history, it was far, far more common

James:

to depict Jesus symbolically as an anchor, whereas a fish wrapped around an anchor than

James:

it ever was the cross.

James:

We're all familiar with fish, and sometimes it

James:

was a fish alone, sometimes it was a fish wrapped around an anchor.

James:

A lot of times it was just the anchor with fish heading towards it.

James:

You see, which I'm fishers of feeder.

James:

I'll make you fishers of men.

James:

So the Christian converts are now civilized in terms of fish.

Martin:

Like the bait.

James:

The bait perfect.

Martin:

And then you could swim with the dolphins.

Martin:

Also, could you show the COVID of your book and back there and explain that?

James:

I don't know how well, you can.

Blair:

See the COVID That looks good.

James:

This is actually taken from a mosaic Mr. Bay discovered that was covered when

James:

Pompeii was exploded in 79, eight in the midst of the Flavian era.

James:

And we know because of recent earthquakes there.

James:

It was a recent Flavian era mosaic taken from Herculaneum.

James:

And here you have a remarkable thing.

James:

Fish and people are both coming towards the

James:

anchor.

James:

So in a totally pre Christian Flavian

James:

symbology, what we're having is fish compared to people, all of them approaching the

James:

salvation of the anchor.

James:

Of course, it's universal symbol of safety.

James:

So it was a specifically Flavian image that was used on mosaics.

James:

Who knows what it represented? Apollo jesus, the flavians themselves.

James:

What? But the point is that's distinctly Flavian

James:

imagery, and the first time we see it on Roman coins is on coins of Titus under his brother

James:

and successor.

James:

Those are discontinued.

James:

They're continued for a while and discontinued.

James:

The only other time there was Roman use of that very image was under Hadrian during the

James:

second Jewish revolt.

James:

And then, of course, it was not used at all by

James:

any other emperors.

James:

And yet, in the very earliest physical

James:

evidence of Christianity of any kind, the earliest physical evidence of Christianity,

James:

any kind of those catacombs of Domatilla, and they are identified both as a Flavian site

James:

burial site.

James:

While the inscription does say this is the

James:

sepulcher of the Flavians right on the inscription, but it's identified symbolically

James:

inside as both Christian and Flavian by the use of anchor and fish and another few symbols

James:

that are used both by the palavians and pagans interestingly.

James:

And are repeatedly used by early Christians in the catacombs.

Blair:

Okay.

Warren:

One fascinating thing that we discovered was a marble facing from the

Warren:

Colosseum of two dolphins wrapped around a trident.

Warren:

Now, a couple of miles away, the Christians are using that symbol in the catacombs.

Warren:

Why are they using a Roman symbol from the Colosseum to identify themselves only a few

Warren:

miles away? This is the Colosseum where Christians were

Warren:

supposed to be thrown to the lions, and they're using the Roman symbol as their own in

Warren:

their catacombs.

Warren:

It doesn't make sense.

James:

Well, there's Slavian Amphitheater itself announces that it was constructed from

James:

the spoils of the Jewish war.

James:

The Flavian Amphitheater, built over Nero's

James:

golden house in the wake of the Jewish war by the Flavia.

James:

I did further research on Roman coinage, too, that I found absolutely.

James:

I was actually writing a monograph on Roman propaganda at the time, including the coinage,

James:

when Mr. Faye made the discovery.

James:

You will find on first century Roman pointage,

James:

the ideology of the New Testament.

James:

And I would just go that far.

James:

Compassion, forgiveness.

James:

Concordia, Harmonia, PAX PAX, orbis terreum.

James:

Peace on earth, goodwill, men.

James:

We might translate all that, right.

James:

Concordia.

James:

Harmonia.

James:

PAX.

James:

Orbis.

James:

Terreum.

James:

Peace on earth, goodwill toward men.

James:

We're about to celebrate Christmas.

James:

In Luke's famous Nativity story, the angels

James:

announce peace on earth, goodwill toward man is what Jesus prays.

Warren:

It's right on.

James:

Roman coins jiggling in pockets when the Gospels are being written.

Warren:

We also found that Titus Flavius Clemens, another Flavian of that period, used

Warren:

the anchor.

Warren:

The anchor is his symbol because supposedly

Warren:

Domician executed him by tying an anchor around his neck and throwing him into the

Warren:

ocean.

Warren:

A millstone around your neck that St. Clement

Warren:

of Rome has an anchor to this day, on stained glass windows, you see him holding an anchor

Warren:

instead of a cross.

James:

We walk into the Catholic for the documentarians.

James:

They have a niche dedicated to St. Clement, and there he is with his anchor.

James:

And his name was Titus Flavius Clemens.

James:

He was a cousin of the emperor as a member of

James:

the emirate family.

James:

He had married a granddaughter of Vestasian, a

James:

niece of Titus, and it was her catacombs, her burial site.

James:

Her body was later removed, but it was her burial site that became the earliest Christian

James:

catacombs I e. The earliest physical evidence of Christianity that exists.

Blair:

That's incredible.

Warren:

Like the granddaughter and niece of the Roman emperors.

James:

The interesting thing is, even ancient pagan historians, one of them says that

James:

Clemens was executed, quote, for adopting Jewish ways, and his wife was banished.

James:

Wait, what? And his family emperors claimed to be the.

James:

Real Jewish Messiahs, and they hired a Jew to do their propaganda.

James:

They were very well aware of the messianic prophecies and the role there.

James:

That's why they used it in their own propaganda.

James:

I'm the Jewish Messiah.

James:

I'm the prince of peace who brought peace on

James:

earth and goodwill toward men and became a world ruler.

James:

And he had a son who was a son of God Savior, who was himself a Jewish messiah, who was the

James:

dude who entered Jerusalem at 30, just like Jesus did, to fulfill the very prophecy Jesus

James:

made as he's.

James:

Entering Jerusalem, jesus walks into the

James:

temple and morally condemns it and starts physically attacking it, morally justifying

James:

and physically commencing the Roman destruction to come.

James:

When you look at all of these parallels and connections to the Flavians and the Jewish

James:

war, it becomes absolutely impossible not to see the intimate connection.

James:

The politics of the New Testament is radically clear.

James:

Romans 13, one of the oldest sections of the New Testament, obey the Roman state as God's

James:

appointed agents on earth, not just to practically get along and not we don't want to

James:

cause trouble here.

James:

No, the Roman state are God's agent on earth.

James:

They bring the sword to justice.

James:

That's god's sword of justice.

James:

That's why rebellion is a sin.

James:

That's why paying your taxes is a moral

James:

obligation, not just a practical good idea.

James:

And then, of course, Jesus in the Gospels,

James:

befriends tax collectors, impure people, says, Pay your taxes.

James:

He says of a Roman centurion, I've not seen so much faith, not even among anyone in Israel.

James:

So at this time of war with Roman the Jews, it's not just a Roman he praises, but a Roman

James:

centurion, and he's got greater faith than any he knows.

James:

Excuse me, I'm getting a little excited.

James:

But you see what screams out as clearly Roman

James:

propaganda over and over and over and over and over and over becomes on here on the season.

James:

Put that together evidence the connections between early Christianity and Roman elites,

James:

roman government elites, jews cooperating with the Roman, roman emperors themselves knew

James:

about Roman religion, Jewish religion, and were using Jewish religion in their own

James:

propaganda.

Blair:

Okay, well, gentlemen, I'm actually getting worse here, but I have one more

Blair:

question.

Blair:

So both of you together, you can answer this

Blair:

one at a time or whatever.

Blair:

What did you really hope to accomplish by

Blair:

writing this book? What were your thoughts about putting things

Blair:

together?

Warren:

Well, of course, truth is one of the main reasons that you want to know what really

Warren:

is going on with our entire civilization.

Warren:

And this is sort of a foundation that has had

Warren:

a lot of downsides for Western civilization.

Warren:

And so for the modern day in the 21st century,

Warren:

I think it's really important for us to finally get these things settled and not have

Warren:

some mystical question at the basis of everything that we're doing now in the modern

Warren:

day.

Warren:

So, yeah, we were able demystifying these

Warren:

relics which still dominate philosophy in the modern age.

Warren:

We felt a very noble ambition.

Blair:

You're here.

James:

What we say at the end of the documentary is true.

James:

We have advanced morally, we really have over the years, and in some ways and in some ways,

James:

we're still trapped by the ethics of the New Testament.

James:

And we're using the ethics of the New Testament.

James:

In effect, even secular people ateists don't question that Jesus was a valid moralist, a

James:

good, good teacher of, you know, good ethics, and yet those ethics really aren't helpful in

James:

the 21st century.

James:

You know, I believe that what we really did

James:

was to expose the moral idealism of Christianity for what it really is.

James:

If you want to continue to be a Roman slave, I mean, yeah, turn the other to any aggression,

James:

even when you can fight back, you can't even run away or block the punch.

James:

You got to say other side.

James:

Or love your enemy.

James:

Submit to the evil doer blessed of the peacemaker.

James:

We say on and on and on.

Warren:

Obey the emperor.

James:

My goodness.

James:

I reject Christian morality, and we expose

James:

Christian morality for what it was largely propaganda in those respects.

James:

And if you want to continue to act like a Roman slave, you're free to do so.

James:

Or you may want to question your philosophy.

James:

Maybe you have to request the whole field of

James:

ethics that you were raised with if you're a Christian.

James:

And so I was hoping to accomplish and I didn't realize that at first.

James:

At first I thought it was just an interesting little thing.

James:

But it indicates, I think, also Iron Rand's view that altruism is ultimately powerless

James:

politically, which is a sacrifice being asked, was someone collecting sacrifices?

James:

Now, Iran didn't know the relationship between Christian altruism and the politics of the

James:

day, politics of slavery and tyranny.

James:

And again, quite accidentally, I had no idea

James:

that we would end up doing this.

James:

But I think we've vindicated ein Rand's view

James:

that altruism is really a rationalization for power.

Martin:

Yes, and then you have on the good note, but then and that could be a follow up

Martin:

for next time about how the cross and the chiropracts came around.

Martin:

And then if you want to have a crucifixion or hanging, as they say in Monte Python.

Martin:

But also the serious thing that you should take the cross and feel guilty and so on.

Martin:

But during this season, in English it's called Christmas, but in other languages, like in

Martin:

Sweden, it's called yuval, like jewel tide.

Martin:

So do you have any ending comment on that?

Martin:

And also about this value for value, how we could support your great work here and the

Martin:

documentary and the individuals behind the documentary, and how we could continue the

Martin:

conversation about this.

James:

It's wonderful.

James:

Paganism about Christmas still bleeds through,

James:

doesn't it, in certain European cultures? Is there anything about an evergreen tree or

James:

candles and lights or so much.

Warren:

Salad, like a logi logi.

Martin:

Logi is a fireplace.

James:

Right. Father Christmas or St.

James:

Nicholas?

James:

I know it's based on Nicholas, but there's so much of Christmas.

James:

The way it's celebrated in the west by Christians has absolutely nothing to do with

James:

Christianity.

James:

It has more to do with the winter souls to

James:

celebrations where the sun has reached its low point and now it's going to get beaten bigger.

James:

Bigger and bigger.

James:

Greens ever greenness to see a symbol of life

James:

through winter.

James:

It's all from Paganism.

James:

Sorry? It's a seasonal thing long before

James:

Christianity.

James:

That's why I celebrate Christmas.

James:

But as to the rest, I'll let.

Warren:

Mr. Pagans well, I think you did a good job.

Warren:

That sums it up.

James:

You asked the second part.

James:

Right.

Warren:

The second part, which was I'm sorry, value.

Blair:

Is that what you meant?

Martin:

And how we could continue the conversation and spread the good word about

Martin:

your excellent work and the documentary and the individuals behind that documentary.

Warren:

Of course, the book is available now and the documentary will become available in

Warren:

other foreign markets outside of the United States.

Warren:

Good.

Warren:

Progressively.

James:

It's available on Amazon platforms shortly.

Blair:

Yes. Good deal.

Warren:

Right.

Blair:

What else are you working on right now, if anything?

James:

Mr. Faye is always writing something I'm hoping to collaborate with.

James:

Now, as I say, there's a growing number of scholars.

James:

We have a school now, we believe in Roman providence and working on a book, historical

James:

book, I hope, with them.

James:

And more than that, I want to back up and

James:

write generally about Christianity and religion in general.

James:

And pluses and minuses, as Mr. Faye indicates.

James:

Mostly minuses, because this opens up a whole

James:

new understanding, I think, of Western religion.

James:

But Mr. Faye, as I say, is the greatest novelist of our time, and he's always working

James:

on something brilliant.

James:

Please check out Magenta.

James:

Please check out his other novels.

James:

Some of the finest philosophical writing

James:

you'll ever come across is in Mr. Cray's work.

James:

I hope that's well.

Warren:

Thank you.

Warren:

I'm working right now on the third and final

Warren:

book of my fragment series, which is a science thriller, and it's called Symbiont.

Warren:

And that will finish off that trilogy, which is continuously being shot in a policy.

Warren:

And then also, I did just finish Magenta, and that is a sort of 1984 orwellian 21st century

Warren:

take on oppression and high tech oppression and fascinatingly, that book.

Warren:

You just could not get that.

Warren:

I had sent that to my publisher of

Warren:

Pandemonium, one of my novels, and he said, oh, it's really well done.

Warren:

I just don't think it's the right time for Dystopia novel.

Warren:

And at that particular day, in that moment, george Orwell's 1984 was number one at Amazon

Warren:

after 75 years.

James:

And I couldn't help it.

Warren:

Not the right moment for Dystopian novel, I guess nobody's in the mood.

James:

I put government lockdowns on COVID and stuff.

Warren:

Yeah, he would.

Warren:

But anyway, so I didn't want it to be

Warren:

adulterated in any way.

Warren:

So I just published it myself.

Warren:

It's available through Amazon, everywhere.

James:

He said.

James:

Books published by Random House in McMillan.

James:

And I think Symbiote will probably get a really good publisher as well.

James:

Kathy has done every kind of writing in every area.

James:

And what's so perverse to me is that what maybe his philosophical magnum opus he's

James:

publishing himself, and he, you know.

Warren:

Yeah, you can't get a book yeah.

Warren:

There's no way you can publish a book like

Warren:

that through it through a major publisher anymore.

Warren:

And, I mean, if you think about it, where are the great novels today?

Blair:

There aren't any.

James:

It's a sad commentary.

James:

There are philosophical novels, isn't it?

James:

I'm surprised the degree of philosophy you managed to put into your thrillers appeared on

James:

the New York Times bestseller list.

James:

He manages to get in philosophy in those as

James:

well.

James:

Anything he writes, ladies and gentlemen, this

James:

audience would be interested in.

Blair:

Gentlemen, James Warren.

Blair:

Thanks for manning the fox hole with us today.

Blair:

Absolutely appreciate it very much.

Blair:

I have to sign off or I'm just going to go

Blair:

horrible coughing fit.

Blair:

So, gentlemen, take care.

Blair:

Martin, can you handle it? Yeah.

Blair:

All right.

Blair:

Bye, Reben.

Warren:

Okay. Bye, Blair.

Blair:

Wait a second.